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 Post subject: Re: Question on lenition
PostPosted: Mon 06 May 2013 3:18 am 
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I think there is a serious deficit in meaning about the notion of lenition. On one hand it is called "softening"....I have never experienced that "softening"....

cófra

mo chófra....that "ch" sound is not softened but hardened, if you are a native English speaker...it's more gutteral.

The notion that the séimhiú is an aspiration of some sort is exactly that. It is not a breath now. The punctum is not a breath pause or a softening either. Where in the name of heavens does this stuff come from?

I agree with Lughaidh....a "t" before an "s" is not lenition either.

Stop thinking in letters....they do not exist! Think in sounds and heartbeats


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 Post subject: Re: Question on lenition
PostPosted: Mon 06 May 2013 3:38 am 
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Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:44 pm
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Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California, USA
I don't know...I experience "ch" (broad or slender) as "softened" relative to the hard "k" sound of the unlenited "c." Instead of the throat closing, it lets air through, which "softens" the sound.



Redwolf


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 Post subject: Re: Question on lenition
PostPosted: Mon 06 May 2013 3:45 am 
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Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm
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Softening is rather transforming stops into fricatives. Normally, fricatives are "easier" (less "tiring" for the mouth) to pronounce between vowels, than stops. It's more relaxing. You let the air going through your mouth instead of stopping it.
That's why it's considered as a lenition ie. weakening.

Quote:
mo chófra....that "ch" sound is not softened but hardened, if you are a native English speaker...it's more gutteral.


yes but "to harden" in phonetics means that a voiced consonant becomes voiceless, it has nothing to see with what an English ear perceives as guttural or not. Btw there's no hardening mutation in Irish grammar. There is in Cornish and in Breton though.

Quote:
Stop thinking in letters....they do not exist! Think in sounds and heartbeats


and learn the names of the mutations as they are: lenition/séimhiú, eclipsis/urú, prefixing h, prefixing t.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on lenition
PostPosted: Mon 06 May 2013 8:58 am 
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I did not know that... :LOL: Thanks Lughaidh, the King of the bleedin' obvious! You could do with a bit of lenition yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on lenition
PostPosted: Wed 08 May 2013 5:12 pm 
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Location: An Astráil
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
No t-prefix on masculine nouns beginning with "s":

An sagart (the priest)
An scamall (the cloud)

That applies in the nominative, but in the genitive t is prefixed to masculine nouns beginning with s (and not to feminine nouns beginning with s, i.e., the rules are (almost) reversed in the genitive):

an sagart "the priest" => an tsagairt "of the priest"
an siopa "the shop" => an tsiopa "of the shop"

an scamall "the cloud" => an scamaill "of the cloud" (t(s)c is considered an impossible combination.)

an tseachtain "the week" => na seachtaine "of the week"

Best way to learn this is to read or listen to lots of examples ... :winkgrin:

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 Post subject: Re: Question on lenition
PostPosted: Sat 11 May 2013 4:59 pm 
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Location: 91 - France
Which is why the Scots family name (and Glasgow Detective) is (Mac) Taggart. There's one who lives in the village where we go in the Summer in la Haute Provence and when I explain the meaning of it to our neighbours.........(There's another lady in the village whose name is Ross and that has even worse connotations in French - she used to teach English in the collège.)


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