We've been using the same copy of the hymn "Bí, A Íosa" for the Mountain View Irish Mass for years, and last night, someone pointed out what appears to be a typo in it.

A couple of us have been bothered by the line for years, but assumed it was just an idiom we didn't know.

The last line of the song, as we have it in our copy, reads "bí romham in am dhéidh." We're now thinking it should be "bí romham is im dhéidh"

Does anyone out there have a reasonably definitive copy of the song, or remember singing it with either of the above endings? Does the first option make sense in any dialect, or are we correct to think it must be a typo?

Redwolf

I suppose it should be "is im' dhiaidh/i mo dhiaidh" ('and behind me').

"Dhéidh" is apparently a variant of "dhiaidh."

But yes...that's our thinking as well: "before me and behind me."

It's just so weird that we've been working from this copy (the one with "in am dhéidh") for years, and this is the first time anyone really questioned it. I think we'd all been assuming it was simply an unfamiliar idiom.

In fact, I've been assuming it was a way of saying "in the time hereafter," which doesn't make a lot of sense in retrospect, but you know how the brain will try to force sense on something it can't make sense of.

That does happen in songs. We have one we do in Cór Ainglí that's driven me crazy for years ("Rug Muire"), because of the line "Buim' is máthair Mhic Dé Bhí." I couldn't figure out what in the heck "bhí" was doing in there until I found out it's a genitive form of "beo"!

Redwolf

"bí romham is im dhéidh"
"bí romham is in am dhéidh (is i mo dhiaidh)."
It needs an "and" to make sense I think.

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.
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As Bríd points out, surely you have a typo above and intended to write is am dhéidh?

as mo dhéidh is another version of i mo dhiaidh. Could am be a contraction of as mo. I doubt it. Probably just an old non-standard spelling of im (i mo).

I have found a reliable version in Ár bPaidreacha Dúchais. The problem is that the spelling has been modernised/standardised so it doesn't shed any light on the correctness or otherwise of the (presumably) older spelling. It says:

...bí romham is 'mo dhéidh

Personally, I'd just change the am to im.

It looks almost like Scottish Gaelic, where nam dhèidh is the equivalent of the Irish i mo dhiaidh, and is nam dhèidh would be "and behind me".

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I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.

Thanks, all!

Redwolf

Yeah Scooby is on the ball in my opinion. The réamhfhocal "i" was often written as "a" until quite recently, especially in Munster. Peadar Ua Laoghaire often wrote "abhfad" for "i bhfad" and in Séadna "am priocadh" for "im phriocadh" (no lenition after p in Cork Irish), especially when direct speech was being represented. As did many of the Cork scribes of the 1800s.

A manuscript copying by one of the Murphy scribes of Cork of Diarmad Ua Longa's poem "Air Bhás fhínghín Mhac Cártha' Eascop Chorcadha 1810". Shows:

Stanza 1, line 1: "Mo ghreada mo chrádh mo chás mo phéin am púir" (notice the lack of lenition on púir)

My burning/ torturing/scalding, my anguish, my concern, my pain in my grief.

Stanza 2, line 3: "Amhuil mhic Dháibhíd a ccáil a ccéil 's a cclúdh"

Like the son of David in capacity/ capability/ fame, in sense and in reputation/ character/ fame

Funny enough Murphy spelled "diaidh" as "deáig"

Incidentally, this Murphy is of the same family as the one that gives their name to Murphy's stout.

The "a" réamhfhocal phenomenon is also very popular in Scottish Gaelic "a-steach" (Ir. isteach).

An etymological look at the word amárach/ amáireach will show how the "a" réamhfhocal also.

Amárach is made up of the réamhfhocal i + Bárach (word meaning spancilling)= i mbárach> amárach. Spancilling is where you fix a rope around a cow's neck and tie it to its hind leg to stop it bucking when your trying to milk it. Milking usually took place in the morning so "i mbárach" (time of spancilling) became synonymous with the morning.



Maybe it should be "Bí romham is am dhéidh"



What does the "n" represent here Caoimhín?

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice

I think am priocadh is a different matter since it comes from ag mo phriocadh (= do mo phriocadh).

I definitely reckon Redwolf meant to write is am dhéidh since this is what she wrote on another thread on another now defunct forum.

Actually, the copy we have says "in am dhéidh" (which was a great part of the confusion).

Redwolf