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 Post subject: Re: Boat Name
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2014 7:14 pm 
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Wow, thanks for all this amazing info chaps. :clap:

One more question....
In English, boats are sometimes called "The Something", but more often just "Something", making Something into a name rater than a description.

But can you do the same in Irish?
So An Ṁurḋuaċ would become just Ṁurḋuaċ

And An Mhaighdean Mhara would be Mhaighdean Mhara.

I'm temped to sign myself Rón :LOL:


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 Post subject: Re: Boat Name
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2014 7:29 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California, USA
Coomkeen wrote:
Wow, thanks for all this amazing info chaps. :clap:

One more question....
In English, boats are sometimes called "The Something", but more often just "Something", making Something into a name rater than a description.

But can you do the same in Irish?
So An Ṁurḋuaċ would become just Ṁurḋuaċ

And An Mhaighdean Mhara would be Mhaighdean Mhara.

I'm temped to sign myself Rón :LOL:


First, be careful there. It's "An Muruach," NOT "An Ṁurḋuaċ" (not quite sure where you got that one)

EDIT: I've just gone back and seen Breandán's post. If it's from Dinneen, it's fine, but don't forget those dots over the d and c! You have to have either that or a following "h" (Murdhuach). This is an older spelling that morphed into "Muruach" during spelling reform...any of them is perfectly fine, but you don't want to forget those dots! Personally, I'd only use them if I were also using old-style Irish lettering.

If you leave off the "an," "Muruach/Murdhuach" is just fine, but "An Mhaighdean Mhara" would become "Maighdean Mhara"

Redwolf


Last edited by Redwolf on Mon 27 Jan 2014 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Boat Name
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2014 7:32 pm 
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Location: Nua Mheicsiceo
Redwolf wrote:
The only concept the Irish had for what we call "mermen" and "mermaids" were seals that turned into humans. The human with a fish's tail is a foreign concept that came along later.
Well, that sounds pretty interesting. Where can I find out about this? I've read a few old reports of mermaids with dolphin-like tails off the coast of Scotland.

Redwolf wrote:
Her thesis was actually on the merrow/selkie legends. I'd give her more credence than anything from Wikipedia.
I don't know your friend and I haven't read her thesis; I also don't know who posted all of that information on Wikipedia, so it's hard for me know which source is more reliable, but I'd like to find out more about this. Everything that I've ever read and every person that I've talked to on the subject (all 2 of them - ha, ha) say that merrows are mermaids and mermen - of course, that doesn't mean that it's true, that's just the information that I've come across, so far.

Redwolf wrote:
In the Donegal song "An Mhaighdean Mhara," the woman is a merrow/selkie who changes (permanently) back into her seal form at the touch of salt water. The back story for the song (which is pretty well-established) is that she jumped into the water to save her little girl from drowning, and thus was forced to go back to the sea.
The versions that I'm familiar with more closely match the one in the movie (The Secret of Roan Inish), but I know that there are lots of variations to this story. It is my understanding that the selkie needs it's seal skin to revert to seal form.

Redwolf wrote:
The concept of "a mermaid" as a woman with the tail of a fish is a foreign one to Ireland. When Irish legends and songs speak of merrows, it's the seal people to whom they are referring.
Yes, I saw that on your previous post. I will look for more information about this. Where can I find out about this? So far, I haven't run across any information that refers to a merrow, murúch, or muruach as anything other than a mermaid or merman – I'll keep looking …


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 Post subject: Re: Boat Name
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2014 7:38 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California, USA
WeeFalorieMan wrote:
Redwolf wrote:
The only concept the Irish had for what we call "mermen" and "mermaids" were seals that turned into humans. The human with a fish's tail is a foreign concept that came along later.
Well, that sounds pretty interesting. Where can I find out about this? I've read a few old reports of mermaids with dolphin-like tails off the coast of Scotland.

Redwolf wrote:
Her thesis was actually on the merrow/selkie legends. I'd give her more credence than anything from Wikipedia.
I don't know your friend and I haven't read her thesis; I also don't know who posted all of that information on Wikipedia, so it's hard for me know which source is more reliable, but I'd like to find out more about this. Everything that I've ever read and every person that I've talked to on the subject (all 2 of them - ha, ha) say that merrows are mermaids and mermen - of course, that doesn't mean that it's true, that's just the information that I've come across, so far.

Redwolf wrote:
In the Donegal song "An Mhaighdean Mhara," the woman is a merrow/selkie who changes (permanently) back into her seal form at the touch of salt water. The back story for the song (which is pretty well-established) is that she jumped into the water to save her little girl from drowning, and thus was forced to go back to the sea.
The versions that I'm familiar with more closely match the one in the movie (The Secret of Roan Inish), but I know that there are lots of variations to this story. It is my understanding that the selkie needs it's seal skin to revert to seal form.

Redwolf wrote:
The concept of "a mermaid" as a woman with the tail of a fish is a foreign one to Ireland. When Irish legends and songs speak of merrows, it's the seal people to whom they are referring.
Yes, I saw that on your previous post. I will look for more information about this. Where can I find out about this? So far, I haven't run across any information that refers to a merrow, murúch, or muruach as anything other than a mermaid or merman – I'll keep looking …


I'll ask my friend if she can supply some primary sources for you to research. Her thesis, like all academic theses, had to be reviewed and accepted by a panel at her university, so I think you can trust her scholarship.

There are many, many selkie/murrow legends...the one in "The Secret of Roan Inis" is just a single version. In some versions, the merrow becomes human when he or she dries off, and turns to a seal again when he or she touches salt water. In others, he or she has a cap of fur that is removed to assume the human form. In many, the selkie/merrow is kidnapped by the human who steals her skin, but in some, including the one that gave the back story to An Mhaighdean Mhara, she stays willingly and is heartbroken to be separated from her human family.

Scottish versions (including the one that gave rise to the song "The Great Selkie of Sul Skerry") male selkies/merrows often impregnate human women and come back later to claim the children for the sea.

Redwolf


Last edited by Redwolf on Mon 27 Jan 2014 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Boat Name
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2014 7:56 pm 
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Here's one source you might like to look at - The Soul Cages - collected by T. Crofton Croker
www.sacred-texts.com/neu/yeats/fip/fip21.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Boat Name
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2014 7:58 pm 
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Location: Nua Mheicsiceo
Redwolf wrote:
There are many, many selkie/murrow legends...the one in "The Secret of Roan Inis" is just a single version.
As mentioned in my previous post:
"The versions that I'm familiar with more closely match the one in the movie (The Secret of Roan Inish), but I know that there are lots of variations to this story."

Thanks for letting me know that not all versions require that the selkie put on its seal skin to revert to seal form – And thanks for offering to help out with this! :GRMA:


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 Post subject: Re: Boat Name
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2014 8:05 pm 
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Location: Nua Mheicsiceo
franc 91 wrote:
Here's one source you might like to look at - The Soul Cages - collected by T. Crofton Croker
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/yeats/fip/fip21.htm
Most of the folks who have researched "The Soul Cages" have come to the conclusion that T. Crofton Croker just made it up and do not consider it to be genuine folklore. Just letting you know what I've read – I'm not meaning to start a debate about the merit of "The Soul Cages" as folklore. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Boat Name
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2014 8:07 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California, USA
In case you're curious about the song I keep mentioning, Coomkeen, here's a nice version sung by three of Donegal's finest female singers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSitqkzFrsY

The description of the song there is a bit silly, but the subtitles are reasonably good.


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 Post subject: Re: Boat Name
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2014 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon 27 Jan 2014 2:47 pm
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Almost hitting information overload here :oops:

I will, of course, use a suitable old-style Irish script, and I will watch those dots.
After having decided on a name (and it's still in the air), I have to find a decent piece of mahogany (probably an old table top - nice and flat and well seasoned) then cut to shape, lay out the name after printing letters from the computer, and carve it into the wood.
Then see if I can line it with gold leaf.
May just have to be gold paint, but won't look as good.

Meanwhile, you have all inspired me to start, and I do emphasise start, leaning Irish.
As a Londoner who escaped and lived most of my life in Cornwall, and was even taken to be Cornish, learning Irish may take another lifetime.
Unfortunately, unless I live to be 140 :LOL: I haven't got that long.
But it's never too late to start.


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 Post subject: Re: Boat Name
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2014 8:56 pm 
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Location: Cill Dara
Coomkeen wrote:
But it's never too late to start.
NEVER! 8-) And you will not always have so much info thrown at you every time you ask a question! There are plenty of simple folk around here too!

Saoirse, on behalf of the simple folk....... :party:

_________________
Is foghlaimeoir mé. I am a learner. DEFINITELY wait for others to confirm and/or improve.
Beatha teanga í a labhairt.


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