There's that word - amaireach - (as opposed to amárach of course) which I'm never quite sure how to pronounce properly. Which one of your slender 'r's that you're referring to, is that one, I wonder?

amáireach /ə'mɑ:r´əx/

Yes, that's the sound we are talking about, franc. [ʒ] (s in pleasure) seems like a good fit but perhaps the /r´/ is lighter (or am I overthinking it). Is it different in Munster, a Loin Dhuibh?

_________________
Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

Some dialects, especially the extinct ones had [ʒ] for slender r. I know they don't use that sound in Munster. In Munster it has two realisations:

[ɾʲ] - after other slender consonants.
[ɹ̝ʲ] - in all other circumstances, this is the buzzing sound, at least according to Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne as posted by Lughaidh.


At the beginning I used to overdo the slender r sound (for Munster) and Cork speakers would ask me if I spent time in Conamara, so it probably is different, to my ears (but I have a useless ear), they sound different in the two provinces. It's stronger in Conamara, so it could be [ʒ].


That's basically what I'm wondering, I've never seen slender r transcribed outside Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, except on a mailing list where somebody used [ɼ(j)], so I'm not sure what the sound "really" is in the IPA.


The buzzing one. Basically, in Munster Irish at any rate, there are two sounds for slender r. A tap like sound, but with the front of your tongue raised and then this "buzzing" sound.

_________________
The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

So in the Corca Dhuibhne you get Máire with a buzz (I'd better be careful what I'm saying here) and up there in Donegal you'll find yourself having to deal with Moya (as in Brennan)? Does that give you any idea of the difference between the two Maries?

Ya, that buzzing is very strong in Ring. Its really similar to a Spanish "rr", but unique it is own right.

http://doegen.ie/doegen/LA_1046d1

or

Watch from 6.30 onwards, where the speaker says "tobar" at around 6.35.

Cian

_________________

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice

There is only 3:48 in that recording.

I can hear that there is no buzz in words like aithreacha in the recording. There would definitely be a buzz like [ʒ] in Connemara. I also notice that there is a definite flap instead, not the English r.

Isn't Spanish rr a trill?

And Cian, is Mícheál Ó Cionnfhaolaidh related to you?

_________________
Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

sorry forgot to post the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONnQsCa78VU



Maybe I'm mixing up buzz and thrill, how would you describe the pronunciation of the "r" in the Doegen recording?



Nope, but I would know a few Kenneallys down there but I don't know if they are related to him.

_________________

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice

Brendan, are you sure this is actually the same phoneme, though? The placement of the tongue strikes me as completely different. What I am used to hearing is a tapped raised alveolar non sonorant. Kind of like the trilled version here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raised_alv ... rant_trill Or am I completely wrong?

Well, Cian is apparently talking about the broad r /r/ (which is trilled in Ring and other parts of Munster) but I think the thread is meant to be about the buzzy slender r.

This r /r´/ is apparently buzzier in Connemara than in Munster. In fact, I can't hear any buzzed r's in the two recordings above. All are flapped/tapped. (A Loin Dhuibh, can you hear any examples of buzzy r's in those recordings?)

Amáireach also turned out not to be a good example in the recordings I have here. These had instead the "tapped raised alveolar non sonorant".

Here are some clearer examples:

Munster:

..Máire

..Maighréad

(Source: Teach Yourself Irish, Myles Dillon and Donncha Ó Cróinín, Hodder and Stoughton, 1961, as compiled by Deghebh)


Connemara:

..ariamh

..Máire

(Source: アイルランド語文法コシュ・アーリゲ方言 Learning Irish, Mícheál Ó Siadhail, KENKYUSHA, 2007)

Notice how buzzy the r's are?

_________________
Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

To my ear there is definitely a tapping of the tongue on the alveolar ridge in those examples. And [ʒ] has the ante/post dorsal part of the tongue bunched up and raised toward the palate. I'm not not suggesting the buzzing isn't there, but that the position of the tongue in [ʒ] (being a continuant) does not also allow for a tap of the blade of the tongue. Still a non-sibilant fricative, but tapped. I'm still thinking that [ɹ̝ʲ] might apply due to the position of the lamina... [ʒ] just doesn't strike me as correct because if the tongue position.